Τα παιδία παίζει, θρηνεί, σκέφτεται, δρα: GreekAmerican Innocent Victims of the Terrorist Attacks Against New York. September 11, 2001. Eternal be their memory

Τα παιδία παίζει, θρηνεί, σκέφτεται, δρα

The childen play, cry, think, act

Δευτέρα, Σεπτεμβρίου 11, 2006

GreekAmerican Innocent Victims of the Terrorist Attacks Against New York. September 11, 2001. Eternal be their memory

51 Comments:

At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 12, 2006 8:11:00 π.μ., Anonymous Ανώνυμος said...

Μπορεις να μου λυσεις μια απορια κυριε "σωστο"?
Πως αντεχεις να ποσταρεις συνεχεια
τοσο μεγαλα κειμενα αφου εχεις
μηδαμινη ανταποκριση σε σχολια?
Παρατηρω δε, αν σου κανουν ενα σχολιο
βρισκεις ευκαιρια για μακροσκελεστατες απαντησεις.
Διακρινω μια αγωνιωδη -αλλα μαλλον αποτυχημενη- προσπαθεια να αποκτησεις αναγνωσιμοτητα.

 
At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 12, 2006 9:34:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Δεν χρειάζεται να σχολιάσεις αρκεί να διαβάσεις.
Αν έχεις κάτι χρήσιμο και "σωστό" να πεις, σε καλοσωρίζω να το πεις.
Αν δεν έχεις, τότε πρέπει να σε κάλυψα πλήρως με το post μου.
Αν είναι δυνατόν Harry να μην σε αναγνωρίσω.
Στο αλώνι του Διγενή υπάρχει ένα post όλο δικό σου.

Είσαι ελεύθερος να εκφρασθείς κόσμια εκεί μας διαβάζουν και παιδιά.
Δεν έχω moderation όπως βλέπεις και δεν υπάρχει λογοκρισία, που όπως καταλαβαίνω έχει υποφέρει πολύ τελευταία.
Μην θρασυδειλείς, δεν χρειάζεται να σχολιάζεις ανώνυμα.

Υ.Γ.
Με ενδιαφέρει η αναγνωσιμότητα.
Spread the word.
Σε λιγότερους απο 4 μήνες ντουζίνες εκατοντάδες έχουν διαβάσει το blog.
Αν ανοίξεις το δικό σου blog θα σου μάθω τα μυστικά της μεγάλης αναγνωσιμότητας.

 
At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 12, 2006 10:34:00 π.μ., Blogger onlinehelp said...

Το σωστό να λέγεται said...
what the heck with 11/sep (mas ta eprixes simera), it happened to usa and usa has since killed innocent ppl in the name of 11/sep, so the balance was made even, both sides are waging a war with no winner, except for profit making colosus food and weapon companies in Usa. And u know what, if Usa is doin good in economics, europe is doin good too. Which means that we are being benefited by Usa's army expenditure!

 
At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 12, 2006 12:12:00 μ.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

anula2,
Τώρα καταλαβαίνω γιατί είσαι διπλή...απο το πρήξιμο.
Χρειάζεσαι την διπλοπροσωπία για να δικαιολογείς τον αντιαμερικανισμό σου.
Επειδή συνέβη η τρομοκρατία σε Αμερικάνικο πληθυσμό είναι σαν να μην συνέβη καθόλου.

Αυτά τα γραικοεγγλέζικα ανούλα γιατί τα χρησιμοποιείς όταν ούτε τους χωνεύεις τους αγγλοσάξωνες αλλά ούτε χρησιμοποιείς σωστά την γλώσσα τους για να καταλαβαίνουμε τι θέλεις να πεις με το
"profit making colosus food and weapon companies in Usa." Αμερικάνικες Εταιρίες τροφίμων!?
Πως μπορεί να έχει κέρδος η Ευρωπαική οικονομία και βιομηχανίες όπλων απο την Αμερικάνικη βιομηχανία όπλων και τροφίμων, όταν και οι δύο πλευρές ανταγωνίζονται πως να παρουν τους πελάτες του άλλου.

Μίλησε στα Ελληνικά κορίτσι μου να καταλαβαινόμαστε!

Πες τα εσύ Ελληνικά και θα τα κάνω εγώ μετάφραση να τα καταλαβαίνουν κι οι ξενόγλωσσοι :)

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 13, 2006 4:47:00 π.μ., Blogger onlinehelp said...

την αμερικη ως κυβερνηση και στρατο την αντιπαθω, την αμερικη ως κουλτουρα την λατρευω

και τι εχεις να πεις για τα εγκληματα που εκανε η αμερικη σε αντιποινα?

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 13, 2006 8:59:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

anula2 said...
"I dislike America as a government and as a military force but I adore America as a culture.

What do you have to say for the crimes that America did for retaliation?"

Answer:
Does it make sense to love someone's garden and to hate a flower?

Tell that to the gardeners and hope that you convinced them so they will remove the "ugly" flower.

You can't throw rocks to another person's garden because of that!


Now with respect to the "retaliation crimes" you mentioned, please provide details, event dates and places.
Was it an unprovoked attack with thousands of victims, solely on civilians, without even a warning, like the World Trade Center on 9/11?

 
At Δευτέρα, Σεπτεμβρίου 18, 2006 7:13:00 π.μ., Blogger martin716 said...

Hello
Sorry to be writing this in English but I just lost my Greek fonts and redownloading them gives me vertical lines. Anyway, I am a student of communications and I have used the blog for a research project.
I think you should go back. There are only three people who stand out there, (I don't mean to get on your nerves now, but Harry is one of them because of the language he uses and the original humor. You are one of them also because your responses are fast and your handling of the langauge professioanl and to the point. Your arguments very sharp. Panashimi is the third because she's got her facts straight.)
If you guys take off, what is left in there is some groopies that lick the boots of the master (probably prospective authors)and some or many who are full of hot air.

That's all man
Stay cool
Martin

 
At Δευτέρα, Σεπτεμβρίου 18, 2006 12:51:00 μ.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Thanks Martin pal for your good English words.

Do you study in the Northeast?

Right now I see the world round as a multidimensional sphere and not reduced to a single point called doncat's dead ear.
Some people there give the good fight against conformism to the sound of a dogmatic click.

I don't see the nickies as bootlickers but cat-throat-lickers.
These scratches are called pop lit greenhorn art.

Thoughtful entertainment is not an escape from an active life to the tight constraints of cheap chat.

Right now I have a good time making fast money and giving it back as fast, together with my free time, to the right causes.

All that rises full of hot air eventually cools off and drops like hail in the middle of summer, first entertaining going up and then scaring going down those lovely flat-EBG kids.

p.s.
I'd love to come supporting the "matter of fact" logic of you, panasximi and a few others. I agree with you to a point.
Harry recoated "Lieman" is a virtuoso crackhead dropping harebrain bombs.

Puss in Boots? Παπουτσωμένος Γάτος;

 
At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 19, 2006 2:11:00 π.μ., Blogger martin716 said...

Your use of the English language is extremely sharp! Wow!!!
Anyway, let me tell you a few things about our project. (Me and two other Greeks, they will go online tomorrow maybe to chat with you and ask you questions. ) I will email Panashimi to join us if you don't mind.I would email a few others too but they have not left email addresses. I don't want to involve those who have been very negative because they will drive the discussion off track.
The project was about anti-americanism and we used recent entries from the doncat blog as primary documentation. Plus our own observations from Greece and Greek bewspapers reporting (that was something else!)We collected quite a few hate comments and some responses that need to be analyzed better maybe. I ran those by my professor and he said something quite interesting. "That's the making of a hate group."
I am very much interested in finding out what you think about the causes of anti-americanism in Greece. I have great respect for your insights (no boot licking here!)
Check us tomorrow please. A guy called Thanos and a girls Katie would love to pose questions. If you don't want to participate, just say so, we will understand... that is alawys your privilege.

 
At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 19, 2006 5:16:00 μ.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

You fear what you don't understand in times of danger.
&
You destroy what you can not control!


What comes first?

What's the cause and what's the effect?

"He who controls the past commands the future.
He who commands the future conquers the past" George Orwell.

 
At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 19, 2006 9:00:00 μ.μ., Blogger Ergotelina said...

Thank you for the photos..

martin716
Why not a blog-debate?

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 12:45:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Ελαβα το μέιλ του Μαρτιν. Μέσα και γω λοιπόν. Αλλά απ'οτι κατάλαβα περιμένουν απαντήσεις από τον σωστό κυρίως. Οντως το λεξιλόγιό του είναι εντυπωσιακό. Λίνα πάω το debate, και ας αφήσουμε τα παιδιά να το κοντρολλάρουν, θα έχει ενδιαφέρον.

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 4:44:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Γειά σας φίλοι και φίλες.
Πανωραία, Λίνα, δεν γνωρίζω ποιός είναι ο Μάρτιν, ο Θάνος και η Κάτια, δεν είχα επαφή μαζί τους με e-mail (not available) αλλά θα ήθελα όλοι να τους βοηθήσουμε αν μπορούμε.
Το θέμα του δογματικού αντιαμερικανισμού στην Ελλάδα έχει απασχολήσει όλους μας αρκετά στο παρελθόν, και μας έχει βλάψει σαν χώρα στην διεθνή πολιτική μας.
Σαν άτομα μας έχει βλάψει ο δογματικός αντιαμερικανισμός γιατί βάζοντας παρωπίδες ηθελημένα αγνοούμε τα προτερήματα της κοινωνίας τους που μπορούν να βελτιώσουν την καθημερινή ζωή μας.

Επίσης χωρίς να καταλαβαίνουμε τις δυναμική της κοινωνίας τους και τις επιπτώσεις στην δική μας. όλη η Ευρώπη έχει απομιμηθεί ωρισμένα απο τα αρνητικά χαρακτηριστικά της αμερικάνικης κοινωνίας.
Κατηγορούμε τις υπερβολές του πλούτου και της αλαζονείας που τον συνοδεύει μερικές φορές, αλλά δυστυχώς συμπεριφερόμαστε οι ίδιοι σαν νεόπλουτοι χωρίς πραγματικά να είμαστε.

Στο θέμα των Ελληνο-αμερικανών τα κλισέ και οι ζηλοφθονίες (κι απο τις δυό πλευρές) μας αποδυναμώνει σαν έθνος. σαν συγγενείς, φίλοι μεταξύ μας και πιθανόν γείτονες.

Έχω αφιερώσει το blog Οδυσσέας για τις σχέσεις μεταξύ Ελλήνων και Ελληνοαμερικανών αλλά και όλων των Ομογενών.

Πανωραία φαίνεται πραγματικά ότι έχεις ζήσει με Ελληνοαμερικανούς και όχι απλώς τους "διάβασες" κοιτώντας το φλυτζανι τον καφέ όπως προσπαθούν να τους κρίνουν μερικοί άλλοι.
Το μόνο που κατορθώνουν είναι άδικα να τους κατακρίνουν τις περισσότερες φορές.

Martin, Thanos, Katie apply your field of education guys.
What's up?
It's nice weather out there and all trying to catch the last rays of summer?

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 6:35:00 π.μ., Blogger martin716 said...

Again English but we are in the library. Mr. SOSTO (I wish I had another name) THANK you so much for accepting to have this chat. You too ErgoteLina and Panashimi (I looked you up....as I thought). We love debates but we are slow -you must be very patient- I want to do my homework before I answer, you understand.
Anyway, my first question to all of you is:
What do you mean by "fear?" Fear of what?
Second question:
Do you agree that in the othe blog some of the comments qualified as "hate" comments?

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 6:42:00 π.μ., Blogger katie_stavrou said...

Hi there
I am using the same computer in the library, so we have to use English.
My question is: Why the anti-western sentiment?
Second:
Why is the media so biased in Greece? How can they survive professionally? I find it surprising they are not out of business.
I would appreciate any thoughts you might have on the subject.
Thank you!

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 8:14:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Hi Martin, Katie.

Homework first and then comes the fun!
I'll try to answer first Martin's questions and then Katie's.

Let me introduce myself.
You can call me Akis.
Half of my life is in the States and the other half in Hellas (Greece).
Do not worry, I am not split in half, for they tell me I mind melded pretty well those twins. :)

I'll try to be as objective as possible to help with your research.

Explaining by familiar example is the best way to comprehend new concepts.

Martin asks:
"What do you mean by "fear?". Fear of what?"

Fear of death, personal injury, fear of "dangerous" changes in your day to day life.

Example:
A series of violent crimes are committed near campus or in dormitories.
You feel powerless against the criminal; you demonize everyone that might fit the abstract description of the criminal by the police.

The same form of indiscriminate bias happened with the American pioneers. They developed a partial mythology against the Indians to protect themselves.
Partial because the danger of harm was real but was a lot more exaggerated than history proved it to be.

Well, the USA government, in the middle of the cold war in the 50's, 60's and 70's sometimes assisted and other times didn't stop while it had promised in the commitment of a few series crimes against the Hellenic population.
The dictatorship of the colonels and the most brutal invasion by a NATO country against a small independent country called Cyprus inhabited mostly of Greek-Cypriots.

Whatever good will was left between the American and the Hellenic people was destroyed by president Regan issuing prohibitions to travel to Hellas in the 80's and the war in Yugoslavia in the 90's because of the carpet bombing against civilian installations even during the day of the most religious Orthodox holiday of Easter.
It was too close to the Hellenic lands this barbarous act against another Greek Orthodox population.

The past positive picture of the America helping the reconstruction of Greece after the World War II and the following devastating civil war against the communists was almost demolished.

The majority of young Hellenes today have not met young Americans for better understanding them, although it has absorbed the American consumerism culture as most Europeans, in a superficial way.

Martin's second question was "Do you agree that in the other blog some of the comments qualified as "hate" comments?"

The answer is yes but because they don't understand the American society and Americans over all.
Most of them didn't have contact with Americans but with elements of American culture transplanted to a different people's temperament.

They are also the few dogmatic young Marxists as in any other European country.
These are the ones that like expensive cigars, cognac, and cars but hate to work for getting them.

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 9:12:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Katie, it is not really an anti-western bias but an anti-American bias similar to what you hear lately from Western Europeans.

The Hellenic media is more biased than other Western countries (part of the American media is biased too, right?) because it is has been always deeply in the red (more than one way, financially and politically).
The media can't make a profit, for many reasons, and are dependent to the government and those oligopolies that generate huge profits from public works.
Twenty of the last 25 years the governing party was PASOK, a quasi Marxist-socialist party that came to power a few years after the end of the American supported dictatorship.
This governing party quickly established by direct grants or indirectly the loyalty of most of the media to the party's line.
This party's leader Andreas Papandreou was really a power hungry demagogue that lived in the good ole USA for years, even served in the American military.
He discovered that he could use the halo of his moderate centrist father, who was a previously very popular prime minister, combined with a newly found demagogy against the "Americans" to succeed in converting to votes the recent bitterness of the people about the extreme right wing dictatorship.

Hellas the land that created democracy became a country of the extremes and demagogues.
A shift from the right to the left needs only a good demagogue orator from a "good" political family, lots of promises, and instilling fear and hate against an external hypothetical enemy.

The people discovered that the ridiculously superficial iconolatry of a politician doesn't bring happiness.
They voted down PASOK two years ago.

The PASOK left but the unhappiness with the Americans (not the people but the government they will correct you) remained.

Recent events like the bombing of civilian targets in Orthodox Serbia and the war in Iraq didn't help in mending of the perceived cultural differences.
There are a few but not significant any more.
Today's young Hellene has adopted the lifestyle presented by MTV and the other cultural channels, dizzy with all the hangovers of a weak national economy centralized around the public sector.

Traveling from and to the USA, cultural interchange youth programs and the support of the Hellenic Americans, who unconditionally love both countries, will make the two nations aware of all that unite them.

There are so many precious values that the two nations have and should unite them. Most people in both countries don't even know that they both Americans and Hellenes share them.

Υ.Γ.
Κορίτσια, Πανωραία και Εργοτελίνα διορθώστε με ή συμπληρώστε με.

p.s.
Friends, the answers didn't mean to be a PhD thesis but my two "international relations" eurocents.

The two ladies or anyone else can add their value added thoughts.

We might see each other planned or by accident on Jan. 6.

Martin, Katie,
Wish you the best for now.

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 10:29:00 π.μ., Blogger thanos1982 said...

Akis
Then howcome we hate the Turks as well? We hate Albanians. We hate Bulgarians. We make fun of the Cypriots non-stop, 24/7.
Why didn't we let that Albanian kid Oddyseas from halkidiki someplace carry the flag? What happened after that? He got a scholarship to go to Brown university. America does not mind letting him carry its flag. Why did we mind so mush?
It just seems to me we simply hated his success.
Am I on the right track?

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 12:03:00 μ.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Thanos said …
"Akis
...Am I on the right track?"

I regrettably say: Not yet!
Thanos you are not on the right track of eliminating hate.
You hate too much...could be your own kind?!

Can you take a deep breadth and clear yourself from all negative feelings of hate?

That doesn’t mean to eliminate your sense of justice in your conscience against evil.

How can you evaluate ethnic hate when you haven’t faced your own?

Can you furthermore answer to yourself the following question?
What can Thanos personally do to stop hate wherever he sees it?

My previous two messages showed how ethnic anti-American hate was exploited for personal political benefit.
Andreas Papandreou a sharp demagogue was able to multiply hate to serve his personal agenda to the detriment of his own nation. Hellenes mostly ignored his nonsensical hateful speeches against the USA. They didn't fight hate and allowed to be influence by Papandreou and his media pawns.
That affected negatively Greek-Americans, which includes you Thanos and me Akis and hundred of thousands others.

Hate has no boundaries and crosses ethnic and religious lines. It is international evil that causes deaths and harms people. Right now it is being generated within many nations including our own.

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 3:34:00 μ.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Μόλις γύρισα σπίτι και βλέπω τα καταπληκτικά σας ποστ. Εμένα με λένε Αθηνά. Και στον Μαρτιν έστειλα μερικά άρθρα, νομίζω θα σας βοηθήσουν.

Ο Ακης έχει καταπληκτική ευχέρεια λόγου, θα έπρεπε να αρθογραφεί στο New Yorker. (Aki I am a fan by the way… please come back and keep me company, it’s so lonely over on the other blog….OK? Don’t say no right away, at least sleep on it). O Ακης σας απάντησε από μια πολιτική πλευρά αλλά εγώ θα ακολουθήσω μια διαφορετική γωνία απάντησης. Νομίζω ότι το μίσος για τον «αόριστο» και «ασαφή» αλλον, ξεκινά από τον φόβο. Φόβος για τον άγνωστο και στην περίπτωση του Οδυσσέα φόβος για τον ανταγωνιστή. Ο Οδυσσέας ήταν μια απειλή γι αυτούς και γι αυτό τον πολέμησαν. Και γω ένιωσα τα ίδια πράγματα με τον Θανο τότε. Ελεγα από μέσα μου. Τι τον διώχνουμε έτσι; Θα τον βουτήξει η Αμερική και μεις τι κερδίσαμε δηλαδή; Οντως τον βούτηξε η Αμερική, και σιγά που θα επιστρέψει. Σε ποιούς; Σ’αυτούς που τον έφτυναν;

Τώρα πως δημιουργείται μια ομάδα μίσους; Ολοι μας νομίζω έχουμε τις προκαταλήψεις μας λίγο πολύ. Ποιοί μας ελκύουν, το σκεφτήκατε; Αυτοί που μας μοιάζουν. Ποιοι μας απωθούν; Αυτοί που είνα διαφορετικοί. Το οποίο είναι φυσιολογικό δότι έτσι αποφεύγουμε χαώδεις προσωπικές σχέσεις. Αλλά από κει αρχίζουμε να θεωρούμε τους «διαφορετικούς» υπεύθυνους για τα προβλήματά μας.

Εγώ νομίζω ότι μισούμε τους Αμερικανούς επειδή είναι διαφορετικοί. Εχουν λιγότερη πονηράδα, περισσότερα χρήματα και η χώρα έχει δυναμη.. Η χαριστική βολή για τον Ελληνα. Βλέπουν μια έλλειψη πονηράδας στις συναλλαγές και λένε «τι κουτοί οι Αμερικανοί». Εχω ακούσει πολλές φορές ότι οι Αμερικανοί έχουν χαμηλότερο IQ από τους Ελληνες. Και δεν μου το έλεγαν αυτό αμόρφωτοι άνθρωποι. Την τελευταία φορά που το άκουσα ήταν από καθηγητή πανεπιστημίου.

Οπότε όπως έλεγα, αποφεύγουμε τον διαφορετικό. Τι γίνεται άμα στρεσαριστούμε; Κάποιος μας φταίει. Εύκολα βρίσκουμε τον φταίχτη, είναι ο διαφορετικός. Φυσιολογικό ως εδώ. Που αρχίζει το αρρωστημένο; Οταν παύεις να λες «εχω προβλήματα και μου φταίει ο τάδε διαφορετικός» αλλά πας στο επόμενο στάδιο και λες «εχω προβλήματα, μου φταίει ό τάδε διαφορετικός, και θα κάνω κάτι για αυτό.» Και κάνεις. Σκοτώνεις τον μαύρο, τον ομοφυλόφυλο, τον Αλβανό. Αν δεν έχεις πλησιάσει αυτά τα στάδια απλά τους μισείς. Και εγώ δεν πιστεύω ότι κάποιος μισεί μεν τους Αμερικανούς αλλά συμπαθεί τους μαύρους. Συνήθως όταν μισείς, γίνεσαι εξαιρετικά γενναιόδωρος με το μίσος. Το στρέφεις εναντίον πολλών. Γι αυτό Θάνο έχουμε στραφεί εναντίον τόσων πολλών. Από τον ¨ελληνα μετανάστη στην Αμερική μέχρι τον Οδυσσέα.

Καταλαβαίνω τι είναι αυτό που ψάχνουν τα παιδιά. Είδατε σκληρές δηλώσεις. Αναλύστε τις. Εγώ δεν μπορώ να συμπεράνω για σας. Το project σας μου φαίνεται πρωτότυπο και η συλλογή ντοκουμέντων πολύ καλή. Ισως και να δημοσιευτεί στο τέλος. Δώστε τον καλύτερό σας εαυτό και θα δείτε πολλά πράγματα μόνοι σας.

Και ό,τι άλλο θέλετε να ρωτήσετε, μη διστάσετε, εγώ θέλω να διαβάσω περισσότερο Ακη.
Εργοτελινα, συμφωνείς; Μου φαίνεσαι πιο νέα, τι λες για όλα αυτά;

 
At Τετάρτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 20, 2006 6:25:00 μ.μ., Blogger Ergotelina said...

Καλα παμε!...

Λοιπόν για τον Οδυσσέα
Υπερ του να σηκωνε τη Σημαία

Για τα ΑΝΤΙ-US ΜΜΕ στην Ελλάδα
ισχυει οπως ειπε ο Ακης
οπως στα ΜΜΕ της Ευρωπης
εδω λίγο περισσότερο

Οσοι ειναι στην Αμερική
ΤΙ ΕΓΙΝΕ ΜΕ ΤΟ "PATH TO 9/11"
ΛΟΓΟΚΡΙΘΗΚΕ;
ΕΠΑΙΞΕ ΚΑΝΟΝΙΚΑ;..

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 12:40:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Αυτό το σχόλιο αφαιρέθηκε από έναν διαχειριστή ιστολογίου.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 12:42:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Είχα ακούσει όλη τη φασαρία αλλά από τηλεόραση εδώ βλέπω ελάχιστα με εξαίρεση τον Jon Stewart του Daily Show (Κωμοδία). Ο Κλίντον έλεγε ότι έπρεπε να αποκατασταθούν πολλές ανακρίβεις. Τελικά έψαξα στις είδήσεις και είδα ότι παίχτηκε.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 1:21:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Thank you Αθηνά και Λίνα.

Your comments were very helpful to further explain the origins of ethnic/racial hate in all people not just Hellenes.

We don't need to remind that Americans went through tough experiences of group hate.
There were periods in American History where the target was Indians, Blacks, Immigrants, from Irish to Greeks, Mexicans, there were several wars with Mexico, "remember the Alamo"?
No society lived ever was perfect, because humans are an imperfect species living in an imperfect material world.

Things changed in the USA, and are still changing for the better.
AHEPA (American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association) was founded in 1922 in Atlanta for the protection of Greek-Americans from the ethnic attacks against them in the South.
Those were serious attacks including lynching during riots.
Some Greek-Americans still remember that prejudice against them.
They don't eagerly talk about it.
At that time people were scared to look and behave different than the mainstream, to maintain their own identity.
Today AHEPA has evolved to an organization that helps and should do more for the understanding between Hellenes and Americans (read more at www.ahepa.org)

Hellas went thru the same pains during the recent flood of illegal immigration from all over the world.
There were not riots but apprehension because crime skyrocketed with the release of the Albanian criminal prisoners from Albanian Prime Minister Berissa after the fall of communism.

It is reasonable to expect that there will be upheaval when you flood in very short time (3-5 years) a country of 10 million with 2 million illegal immigrants, most of them looking for work but many thousands of them looking for a profitable criminal career.
The standard of living in Hellas compared to Albania was ten times better.
We are talking about 60 million Central and South Americans rushing over open borders to the USA in less than 5 years.
We know what happened in Florida with the controlled entry of the thousands of Cuban refuges in very short time.
The state of Florida absorbed them but with a lot of pain.
Let's not forget that many Cubans had already relatives living in the country, the Albanians had none to help them.
The state was completely oblivious to the housing needs of the newcomers.
They lived in the parks.

What's the immigrant situation today in Hellas?
It is much better. Most of the new illegal immigrants found work, they live in blue collar neighborhoods with their family, their kids go to school, and the government slowly legalizes them.
Are there still problems with the integration of the new immigrants?
Yes, there are many, but they are not as sharp.
It is not an emergency, a flood of millions of illegal undernourished, homeless, not so healthy, not so legal immigrants
,in a country as homogeneous of one people as Hellas.

Right now there are workers from every Balkan country, Turkey, Asia (Iraq, Pakistan, and India) Africa (Nigeria, Senegal).
Hellas is located in the crossroads of three continents and is a capitalistic country with a much higher standard of living compared to some the immigrants' countries of origin.
Hellas a country that used to send her children to immigrate to other countries just 30 years ago, today became the USA type land of immigrants.

Hellenes trust the care of their children and elder parents with nurses from Albania and Bulgaria.

Many schools in the cities have half of their students born in another country.
There will be a couple cases of anti-immigrant bias like that with Odysseas when there are several hundred thousands of immigrant kids in Hellenic public schools.
Isn't there any in the USA?


Υ.Γ.
Μεγάλο βγήκε, πιάσαμε και το πρόβλημα της παράνομης μετανάστευσης...
Αν το είχα στείλει στου γάτου θα το είχε κόψει λόγω μήκους ή θα έκανε άγρια νιαουρίσματα ότι είναι εκτός θέματος.

Καλύτερα κάπου αλλού, εκεί που μπορώ να γράψω για τα θέματα που μας αφορούν και όχι να χρειάζεται να απαντήσω σε εθνικές βρισιές εναντίον των Ελλήνων με το βουλοκέρι του αυτοκράτορα Δήμου.
Καίει τα δάκτυλα η λογοκρισία δεν είμαι στο δημοτικού να είμαι υποχρεωμένος να γράφω μόνο στο στύλ που γουστάρει ο γεροδημοδιδάσκαλος γιατί αλλοιώς θα μου τις βρέξει!

Αν ήμουν cartoonist θα έβγαινε ένα σκίτσο που έχω στο νού που θα γέλαγε κι ο ίδιος ο γάτος..

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 1:51:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Ακη
Θα απαντήσω στο θέμα της αντιμετώπισης του μίσους στην Αμερική και πως αυτό διαφέρει από την αντιμετώπιση στην Ελλάδα. Στην Αμερική τους έχουν ήδη χαρακτηρίσει σαν "ομάδες μίσους." Εμείς όχι. Οι τιμωρίες για εγκλήματα μίσους είναι πιο αυστηρές από τις τιμωρίες για κοινά εγκλήματα, με το σκεπτικό ότι όπως η τρομοκρατία έτσι και αυτά, στρέφονται εναντίον του state και όχι μόνο εναντίον της κοινωνίας. Τα δε δικά τους εγκλήματα εναντίον μειονοτήτων τα εξετάζουν βαθιά και τα συζητάνε.
Θα σας δώσω ένα παράδειγμα. Εδω πέρα διδάσκω σε ένα κολλέγιο και στην πορεία ενός μαθήματος με θέμα τις μειονότητες ανεκάλυψα ένα συγκλονιστικό βίντεο στη βιβλιοθήκη "The murder of Emmett Till". Ηταν η ιστορία ένος μαύρου πιτσιρικά από το Σικάγο που επισκέφθηκε έναν θείο του στο Νότο τη δεκαετία του 60, σφύριξε σε μια λευκή και δυο τύποι τον δολοφόνησαν άγρια. Το πτώμα του βρέθηκε παραμορφωμένο και η μητέρα του έκανε κηδεία με ανοιχτό φέρετρο για να τον δει όλος ο πλανήτης. (δείτε τον στο http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/famous/emmett_till/7-2Emmett-Till-open-casket.jpg)
100 μέρες αργότερα η Ρόσα Παρκς αρνήθηκε να δώσει τη θέση της σε λευκό και άρχισε το μποϋκοτάζ των λεωφορείων στο Μοντγκόμερυ. Τα υπόλοιπα είαν ιστορία, και εκτός θέματος.
Τι έλεγα λοιπόν; Οταν έφερα το βίντεο στην τάξη οι περισσότεροι με κοίταξαν βαριεστημένοι. Μου εξήγησαν ότι το είδαν στο Γυμνάσιο και Λύκειο, σαν μέρος του "American History."
Εμείς Ακη δεν δείχνουμε ποτέ τίποτα από τα εγκλήματά μας, (και αν δεν έχει η ιστορία μας μπόλικα). Ποτέ, τίποτα, τίποτα. Μια ζωή προωθούμε την προπαγάνδα του θύματος. Και αυτό διευκολύνει το μίσος.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 3:33:00 π.μ., Blogger Ergotelina said...

Αυτό το σχόλιο αφαιρέθηκε από έναν διαχειριστή ιστολογίου.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 3:34:00 π.μ., Blogger Ergotelina said...

Αυτό το σχόλιο αφαιρέθηκε από έναν διαχειριστή ιστολογίου.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 3:35:00 π.μ., Blogger Ergotelina said...

Παιδιά μια που γραφετε πολύ καλά
Αγγλικά

To multilingual Περιοδικό
http://www.ovimagazine.com/
σας προσκαλει
να γραψετε αρθρα για όποιο θεμα
θελετε..

Εχουν μαζευτει πολλοι Ελληνες
εκει..

Ψυχη του περιοδικου ειναι ενας Ελληνας μεταναστης(Oδυσσέας που θα λεγε και ο Ακης)στην Φινλανδία

OVI Θανος Καλαμίδας

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 6:56:00 π.μ., Blogger martin716 said...

Guys I think you have been very generous. I saw that I did not reply to some of your questions. We are not in the NorthEast but very South (Miami) and my email is martin_voloud@yahoo.com

I understand better where all the hate comes from, and I also see it here, but people are not as vocal about it, they are hesitant to express it in public.

Akis are you in New Zealand? The reason I am asking is that I see when I post a message that it shows time of the Far East and these places.

Lina, thank you for the site you gave me. This man sounds very educated, he writes very well.

Akis what did you mean when you said we'll meet on January 6? Is that a religious message? It is epiphany, isn't it? Unless you are coming to the US then... boy we would all love to meet you!

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 9:51:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Αθηνά,
Some Hellenes might have negative feelings for people of other races and even be vocal about it but there were no widespread lynching and race riots.
There is more hate and violence among fanatical Hellenic soccer team fans than fanatical ethnic hate fans.

Any incidents of violence against minorities in Hellas becomes top news that can be discussed for ever in the TV "windows".
There are no race riots like in Los Angeles or lynching that as a matter of fact didn't happen only in the South.
Some of the worst race riots against blacks or riots against immigrants were in Chicago, Boston and New York.

Yes, I agree that there is no educational material and movies shown in the schools on what are race and national discrimination, its forms and how to stop it.
There are presentations from students in the schools about discrimination using material that the students researched in the Internet from their school computers, home or with the help of a teacher.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 9:53:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Lina,
I'll take a look in Thanos magazine.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 9:56:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Martin you are welcome.
The time is Polynesian.
Yes,
Jan 6 is Epiphany.
A possible trip to Tarpon Springs.

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 12:55:00 μ.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Aki are you kidding me?
I live in Tampa. f you come to Tarpon Springs let's meet, ok?
Athena

 
At Πέμπτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 21, 2006 11:49:00 μ.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Athena,
You live in Tampa?
Nice! You lucky girl.
Why not?
Let's meet in January Athena.
It will be fun.

 
At Παρασκευή, Σεπτεμβρίου 22, 2006 1:56:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Aki
I don't want to give my real email address in a public blog but I have created one for my hate mail (panashimi@yahoo.com). I check it occasionally in order to boost up my confidence. If you make it here, do write and I will reply from my real address.

Athena

 
At Παρασκευή, Σεπτεμβρίου 22, 2006 4:12:00 π.μ., Blogger martin716 said...

We are coming too if Akis makes it there. It is only three hours drive.
Thanks again for everything

 
At Παρασκευή, Σεπτεμβρίου 22, 2006 9:46:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Athena, Martin, Katie, Thanos.
I've been in Florida before but it will be my first time visiting the Gulf area and Tarpon Springs.
I have a relative of my mother that lives in Jacksonville and I have older friends that live in West Palm Beach.

I'm planning to be in Tarpon Spring for the Epiphany weekend, Friday through Sunday, Jan. 6 is Saturday.
I'll send you e-mail before the holidays with the details. It will be great if we can all meet.

p.s.
Athena, I understand the problem with e-mails, believe me I get over 50 a day in both accounts, personal and business. I use "rules" to filter them out automatically to their right folder, but it still takes some time.
I rarely give my personal e-mail address, only to family and friends. I don't have a choice with the business one.

 
At Παρασκευή, Σεπτεμβρίου 22, 2006 10:01:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Martin and rest of the gang absolutely yes! However, I am suspecting I will be seeing you before then
Martin, do you EVER check your email?

You too Lina if you ever find yourself in the Gulf area, do email me. I mean it.

Aki sorry for the conspiracy but when you email me post something here as well so I can be sure it is you and not some other wisecrack playing a joke!

Have a great weekend everyone!

 
At Παρασκευή, Σεπτεμβρίου 22, 2006 6:11:00 μ.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Oki Doki Athena.
Have a great weekend.

 
At Σάββατο, Σεπτεμβρίου 23, 2006 9:25:00 μ.μ., Blogger Ergotelina said...

Αυτό το σχόλιο αφαιρέθηκε από έναν διαχειριστή ιστολογίου.

 
At Σάββατο, Σεπτεμβρίου 23, 2006 9:26:00 μ.μ., Blogger Ergotelina said...

Hi guys!

I found an interesting greek american
blog..

by Stavros(born in Constantinople)
He lives in Main

Especially,you Akis,you 'd like it..
:)


My Greek Odyssey

 
At Κυριακή, Σεπτεμβρίου 24, 2006 1:51:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Thank you Lina for the link.
I read the posts in the web site and some of the posts linked.
It is interesting, very interesting.
A dozen Greek-restoftheworld men, with ten different looking opinions, but all include part of the truth about Omogeneia.
Some assimilated to the point they don't want any Greek but still very proud of their heritage, some still boiling-hot Mediterranean Blue and White Hellenes even after living for 20 or more years abroad.
Some are lefties some are rightists, some are religious Orthodox, other are agnostic or even pagan dodekatheists.

They all want Hellenism to survive in Hellas and abroad the way it survived in them.

It's funny; as I was reading them I was saying "yeah, that's right" and "how wrong can you be? “
At the end I realized that only fear of losing Hellas will motivate them to unite against all their preconceptions against each other and internal contradictions.

Wasn't fear and danger of losing their freedom and identity that made spring into action the always quarrelling Ancient Hellenic city-states so they could unite and defend their nation?

They didn't even know they had one, until the Persians came full force on their head.

Turks have replaced the Persians.
Long live the Barbarians!
They are after all part of the solution.

 
At Κυριακή, Σεπτεμβρίου 24, 2006 2:03:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

POSEIDONIANS


"The Poseidonians forgot the Greek language
after so many centuries of mingling
with Tyrrhenians, Latins, and other foreigners.
The only thing surviving from their ancestors
was a Greek festival, with beautiful rites,
with lyres and flutes, contests and wreaths.
And it was their habit toward the festival's end
to tell each other about their ancient customs
and once again to speak Greek names
that only few of them still recognized.
And so their festival always had a melancholy ending
because they remembered that they too were Greeks,
they too once upon a time were citizens of Magna Graecia;
and how low they'd fallen now, what they'd become,
living and speaking like barbarians,
cut off so disastrously from the Greek way of life."

C. Cavafy
translated by E. Keeley and P. Sherrard

How true for some of our Poseidonians abroad, although very few consider themselves living among barbarians.

Will be possible to have a few Poseidonians in Hellas?

 
At Κυριακή, Σεπτεμβρίου 24, 2006 2:06:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Two more Cavafy poems, one relative to our talk about survival of Hellenism and the movie the 300 Spartans.
The second has to do with Pope Benedict's literature and historical interests.


THERMOPYLAE


Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion;
generous when they are rich, and when they are poor,
still generous in small ways,
still helping as much as they can;
always speaking the truth,
yet without hating those who lie.

And even more honor is due to them
when they foresee (as many do foresee)
that in the end Ephialtis will make his appearance,
that the Medes will break through after all.


C. Cavafy, 1903
Translation by E. Keeley and F. Sherrard


MANUEL KOMNINOS

One dreary September day
Emperor Manuel Komninos
felt his death was near.
The court astrologers -bribed, of course- went on babbling
about how many years he still had to live.
But while they were having their say,
he remembered an old religious custom
and ordered ecclesiastical vestments
to be brought from a monastery,
and he put them on, glad to assume
the modest image of a priest or monk.

Happy all those who believe,
and like Emperor Manuel end their lives
dressed modestly in their faith.

C. Cavafy, 1915
Translation by E. Keeley and P. Sherrard

 
At Κυριακή, Σεπτεμβρίου 24, 2006 2:10:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Like] the Poseidonians in the Tyrrhenian
Gulf, who, although of Greek origin, became barba-
rized as Tyrrhenians or Romans and changed their
speech and most of their habits; though they still
observe one of the Greek feasts even to this day,
and, getting together, they recall their ancient
names and customs, and after bemoaning themselves
they go away in tears.

Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists

The history behind Cavafy's poem.

 
At Κυριακή, Σεπτεμβρίου 24, 2006 5:16:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Aki
What's wrong with a changing identity? I have changed dramatically over the years, and I hope to God I'll keep changing.The more I change, the more humble I become (it's the truuth, do not judge me from my posts, the anonymity allows me to vent out my anger). I also become more tolerant and more at peace with so many imperfections.
The greatest gains I have had through my changing or fluid identity are the peace treaties I have signed with so many ghosts and enemies.

(Probably you are referring to certain constants and I will agree with you.)
Your friend
Athena
What do you mean by "barbarians?"

 
At Δευτέρα, Σεπτεμβρίου 25, 2006 2:43:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Hi Athena,

I was commenting to Lina about how Hellenes in all countries including Hellas have a concept of Hellenism in various forms and intensities.
For some it is a "drive-thru", "maximize profits" Hellenism.

There is nothing wrong with a changed identity as long as it doesn't become an erased identity.

Kavafis himself is the product of the Hellenic, British, Egyptian and French cultures.
He did kept his Hellenic identity and fed it with the positive traits of the other cultures.
He improved it.

It is not a changed identity that the poet is sad for.
It is not its enrichment with fertile soil for the plant to further grow.

It is a faded and dried-up identity that concerns him.
It is the willful selection, by some, of a new identity that merged the worst elements of the old world with the worst elements of the new.
It is the absorption and assimilation, the growth in material property while shrinking culturally and spiritually.

The Ancient Hellenes were not calling "barbarians" only the ones that were living in far away lands, unable to speak the Hellenic Language, ignorant of the Hellenic culture, but also the ones that lived amongst them that showed a barbaric identity with their speech and behavior, acts and arts.


I added a couple images to enrich the visual part of the subject and I posted it in http://odusseas-with-yamaha-outboard.blogspot.com/

There you'll see an example of drive-thru Hellenism.

Thank God that type of Poseidonians are NOT widespread in the communities of Omogeneia.

 
At Δευτέρα, Σεπτεμβρίου 25, 2006 2:57:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Aki
My son has started reading you.
You have certainly captured the young man's attention.

 
At Δευτέρα, Σεπτεμβρίου 25, 2006 8:56:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Hi Athena,
Hi son of Athena,

I'd enjoy the young man's participation.
This is what blogs are about. They are here so anyone that wants can communicate, read and write to other people without the requirement and constraints of a physical presence.

It is like the Ancient Agora, the schools and ancient theater that Hellenes used to discuss, educate and entertain each other.

Today you can perform each one of those intellectual activities either by physically meeting others or by doing all three interactively in the Internet.

Someone can improve his understanding of people, life and God in the Internet or he/she can kill a lot of free time.

Internet is not just an entertainment medium but a medium that allows viewers to interact with the producer.

They are what you make them to be.
It definitely beats passively watching TV.

 
At Δευτέρα, Σεπτεμβρίου 25, 2006 11:46:00 π.μ., Blogger Πανάσχημη said...

Aki
Hopefully you will meet him. Today we had visitors from NYC, we had a nice barbecue and he surprised everyone by playing solo guitar. A piece by Eric Clapton which he has been practicing for months.

"Layla, you’ve got me on my knees.
Layla, I’m begging, darling please.
Layla, darling won’t you ease my worried mind."

So sorry to get so off track but he made me happy...
And I will tell him about the blog, although I doubt it ...

 
At Τρίτη, Σεπτεμβρίου 26, 2006 12:08:00 π.μ., Blogger Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Πανάσχημη said...
"So sorry to get so off track but he made me happy..."

Athena you are such a kid of the seventies! :)

Your son has a good taste.
It isn’t easy playing Clapton.

I prefer listening to the Unplugged version of Layla.
I loaded my best tracks to the Ipod and itune them while working or playing in the computer.

 

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